tv QA with Jessica Stern CSPAN April 19, 2015 8:00pm-9:01pm EDT
c-span, q&a with jessica stern. followed by the biannual debate in toronto about whether the west should engage more or less with russia. ♪ >> this week on q&a, our guest is jessica stern, co-author of "isis: the state of terror." she talks about the growth of the organization, its mission and methods and how it compares to other terrorist groups. there are several videos in this program that are violent and potentially offensive to viewers. brian: your new book is called isis. why didn't you call it isil? jessica: we could have called it
isil. we thought isis sounded better and would be more familiar to people even though the president refers to the group as isil. brian: why is there a difference between the president using isil and some people using islamic state? jessica: the president doesn't want to call it the islamic state because they claim to be a state, but they are not. he does not want to give them that credit. we called it isis just for editorial, to make it easier. that's the only reason. brian: what was the reason to write the book? jessica: my editor asked me to write the book. it wasn't actually my idea. in fact, i was in the middle of reading another book that is taking me a long time. when he first asked me, i was about to say no. and then, i realized that it is
a very important topic and people really need to know about it. so that's why. brian: you have a co-author j.m. berger. i knew -- >> jessica: i didn't know enough about social media. i told my agent, there is a guy on twitter who knows a lot about social media. maybe i will make him a character in the book. my agent said, why don't you make him a co-author? i barely knew the guy. i got to know him on twitter. i had only met him once. but it was a very good decision. he is a great guy. brian: what did he bring to the book? jessica: he has been communicating with terrorists on social media since they started using social media. so he really knows a lot about what they say, how they use
social media. he develops software with someone from google to monitor their use of social media. he is also a good writer. he brought a lot to the book. here it brian: here is propaganda video from isis. >> we will not be returning to fight in iraq. [explosions] brian: what impact does this sort of thing have on the world?
the video, and then we will get to isis. jessica: for most people, it is horrifying and terrifying. for some people who want to reinvent themselves, it is apparently exciting. who want to reinvent themselves as violent terrorists. brian: where and when did isis start? who are they? jessica: isis came to international attention when they started beheading foreigners. that is when they got the attention they were seeking. but it comes out of al qaeda in iraq. that was formed in 2004. it does, in some ways, come out of the invasion of iraq in 2003. it has changed names, changed leaders, but it is essentially al qaeda in iraq under new leadership, with a somewhat
different agenda. brian: could we find a headquarters somewhere? jessica: isis has a headquarters in syria now, in rocca. brian: back to the iraqi situation and al qaeda coming out of the 2003 invasion. what makes up that group? sunnis, she is? -- shia? jessica: al qaeda in iraq was led by a former criminal who had been secular, and had been living a life of crime. he decided he wanted to cleanse himself of that life of crime and he started a series of terrorist organizations. he went to afghanistan, he met osama bin laden, and in 2004, he actually agreed to become a
franchise of al qaeda, al qaeda in iraq. brian: who was that? jessica: his name was zarqawi. he formed a group that started beheading, i mean, one of the things people don't realize is that isis was not the first organization to use beheading. he was beheading westerners, beheading shiites, and also filming his beheadings. but he had very low production value. he didn't get the same kind of attention that isis has. with its very revolting videos. brian: we have videos of zarqawi . i wanted to ask you to pay attention to the translation at the bottom.
uncomfortable answering that question. i do not believe that isis is islamic. i believe that they are, they take passages of islamic teachings, and taxed, and use it to justify violence in the same way identity christians do that. but very few christians would recognize identity christians, which is a neo-nazi sect, as christian. very few have even heard of them. there a few muslims recognize -- very few muslims recognize the islam that isis promotes. i am uncomfortable voicing what mohammed, how he would react. i don't feel like that is my place. brian: what happened to zarqawi? jessica: he was killed in 2006
in a u.s. airstrike. the group continued, and it changed its name to the islamic state of iraq. eventually baghdadi, who is now the leader of isis, took over the islamic state of iraq. brian: who is baghdadi? jessica: he is a cleric. he reportedly has a phd in islamic studies. he had been in a u.s.-run detention facility in iraq, and started organizing the group that would ultimately become isis. while he was in prison. he populated his organization with people who had spent time
in u.s. detention facilities in iraq. brian: where would you find him now? jessica: he does not show himself very often. i assume that he is moving around. he tries to stay hidden. i think he knows he is a very attractive target. brian: we have video also of him. again, watch the bottoms a you can understand.
brian: what do you think of what he was saying? jessica: he would like to see all muslims feel obligated to join the caliphate that he has established. i mean, it is pretty outrageous. i think king abdullah of jordan, he calls him an outlaw. he says this caliphate that baghdadi has established has nothing to do with islam. i think the most muslims view it that way.
brian: we have a map to show where isis controls the territory. part of iraq, part of syria right up to the turkish border. how long has it taken them to control this part of that world? jessica: it has taken them, it took the months, actually. brian: is it expanding? jessica: they are expanding into libya. they are, they have groups that have pledged allegiance to them including boko haram in nigeria. they are seeking to expand all over the world. that is their goal. brian: what is a caliphate? jessica: an islamic-based state. they believe that when the
caliphate was ended, around world war i, that it was imperative to reestablish the caliphate in advance of the end times. brian: what was it about world war i? what was the area of the caliphate? jessica: i don't know exactly, i am sorry. i don't know the whole area. you probably know. brian: no, actually. is that daddy a -- is baghdadi a calpiiph? jessica: he is self-anointed. in order to take on that role, he needed to be a descendent of the prophet. he claims he is. brian: what is the difference
between, i know sunnis are dominant in the world. 1.6 billion muslims. and the shia. what is the difference between those two? jessica: they have different practices. from the perspective of isis, one of the most important differences is that shia have monuments, they have holy i am sorry, i shouldn't go into this. i have that in the glossary. you're going to have to cut this out. brian: tell me about the glossary. jessica: we have it in the f pendants -- in the appendix of the glossary. i had a doctoral student write this. brian: how did you approach this
from the very beginning? jessica: i am not a scholar of islam. i am a scholar of terrorists. i can talk about terrorists from across religions, but i am not a religious scholar. in order to write the book, i got a scholar of religion to teach people about the differences. brian: what part did the scholar right? is it the gall -- glossary and appendix? who did you hire to do that? jessica: a doctoral student from brown who has become my doctoral student. i'm helping her with the terrorism part of her dissertation. brian: what is your full-time work now? jessica: i am a lecturer at harvard. i in teaching a freshman seminar on terrorism. brian: why do students want to
come to your class? what is the motivation? jessica: students are interested in terrorism. some of them were in new york on 9/11. i have a tunisian computer science student who was serious about terrorism. he is totally secular, but he wanted to understand what is happening in his country of origin where quite a few young people have joined isis. brian: how large is your class? jessica: the freshman seminars at harvard, we accept 12 students. brian: what is your approach to teaching? what material do you use to get her the semester? jessica: we teach them about many different organizations. i have, i teach with someone
who is a forensic psychiatrist and an attorney. we look at lone wolf terrorists who claim to be christian, we look at the unit above are -- the univar -- unabomber. brian: so what are the motivation of those students? is it an elective or part of a major? jessica: it is an elective. freshman have the opportunity to take one very small class where they really get to know the faculty. for me, it's really fun, because i get to know the students really well. part of what is happening is that they are learning about terrorism and they are curious about terrorism. also they are getting to be in a really small group. most classes are much larger.
brian: your approach to this book, how did you set out to do it? jessica: well, both my co-author and i had been following the groups that turned into isis over time. we had been following al qaeda in iraq, the islamic state of iraq, we followed our nusra, and we followed isis. that dottie declared he -- baghdadi declared he was going to be the leader of isis and al- nusra, which was in syria, and they would be together in a group called isis. we were also following when the lottery -- zawahri kicked
baghdadi out. neither of us was planning on writing the book. we had been writing articles about it. we tried to figure out what was most important for people to know about this group, is it really knew? it has a new name, a new mission. brian: if osama bin laden was alive, when do you think, based on following him over the years he would think of his success? would he feel successful? jessica: i don't think bin laden would be very happy with isis. i don't think he would be happy with the way they are killing so many muslims. in fact, zawahri, his deputy, wrote to zarqawi, the leader of iraq -- al qaeda in iraq, and
said, this is not good for our image. he was concerned about the image of al qaeda. he thought killing muslims was harming the image of al qaeda. it is pretty clear he would not have been happy with the direction that baghdadi has taken isis. brian: what you think is feeling would be about the impact he has had on this country at the? jessica: i think he would probably feel approving of the way this country is gearing up in some ways, to respond. bin laden really wanted to go to the west -- go -- goad the west into reacting. i think he would think what baghdadi is doing is good in
that regard. even though baghdadi says he is beheading westerners to keep us out of iraq and syria, it is clear that he really wants us there and indeed, needs us there to fulfill his narrative about the final battle and the end times. brian: zawahri, where is he? jessica: i assume he is in pakistan. brian: we haven't found him? jessica: i can't speak to the government. i don't know personally who he is. brian: he is head of al qaeda now. we will run some videos of people can see what he looks like.
brian: what is your sense of why , what are they trying to do? what's the point? jessica: baghdadi's point is to spread this caliphate around the whole world. that is his fantasy. that he will be able to establish a sharia-based state under his leadership around the world. but he also is trying to fulfill a narrative about the end times
and the apocalypse. brian: so sharia law, have you studied that? jessica: no, i really haven't. i understand it only as much as terrorists try to promote it. brian: we have people who spend their lives in this country saying that it is coming and we are not stopping it and someday we will live under sharia law. if we did, what impact would it have on us? jessica: sharia law as practiced in saudi arabia, means that people are beheaded for certain crimes. it means they are stone for certain crimes. -- stoned for certain crimes.
those are aspects of sharia law as practiced in south -- saudi arabia that most americans would find repugnant. as practiced in saudi arabia women cannot drive. women do not have equal rights. those are aspects of how it is interpreted in saudi arabia and certainly by isis, that most of us in america would find utterly unacceptable. brian: you have any stance, when you hear people predict that it will come to this country someday, you think that will happen? jessica: no. i don't. brian: why? jessica: i don't see how it could. americans would never accept that i think very few muslim americans would accept that. brian: i guess that's what i wanted to ask. inside our country, there are different places where muslims
live. with the be able to, under our constitution, bring sharia law to their world? jessica: it is something i can't imagine. i can't imagine that happening. i can't imagine i am sure there are small groups of muslims who would like to see that happen in america, but the vast majority would never accept the way sharia law is interpreted by isis or saudi arabia, certainly. brian: what is your view about how the american government is dealing with terrorism? jessica: i think that terrorism prevents many different kinds of threats -- presents many different kinds of threats. isis presents a military threat, especially to the countries that surround the area it controls. it presents a terrorist threat
to the entire world. it presents an ideological threat. isis is able astonishingly, to his -- to attract westerners. one of the biggest problems for us in the west is precisely that, that somehow, it is able to attract people who want to reinvent themselves with a very clear, black and white identity where it is clear with the good guys are, with the bad guys are, a version of islam that most muslims do not accept or recognize. brian: in the clinton administration, you worked in the national security council for how long, and what did you do? jessica: i worked the national security council for one year. i was director for russian-ukrainian and eurasian affairs. that sounds highfaluti, but i
mainlyng worked on nuclear stuff, terrorists getting access to nuclear materials. jessica: brian: right now, how do you think the national security council and the white house is getting their information? we also -- often hear that we don't understand. do you know people working in the administration? jessica: it was 20 years ago and i worked in the administration. i don't know very many people working in the administration today. i did recently attend the white house summit on countering violent extremism. one of the things they are trying to do is run pilot projects in three cities to prevent individuals from getting recruited to terrorist groups
acting abroad, or potentially, acting at home, where they have pilot projects in st. paul minnesota, and los angeles, and my hometown of boston. brian: if the president called you up right now and wanted to talk to you about this book and what is in it that he could benefit from, what would you say to him? jessica: i think there are two aspects of isis that are very, very important for the president to understand. one, there -- the efforts and successesi on social mediar and the need for us to respond to that, to counter the narrative they are spreading so effectively. the other is their apocalyptic narrative. it is impossible for me to know for sure whether they really believe the end times are
coming, or whether they are capitalizing on widespread belief in muslim-majority countries, that they will witness the end of times. so are they manipulating people? are they spending this narrative about the end of times as a recruitment drive? or, do they really believe it? i think, certainly, some of them seem to believe it. part of what we anticipate will occur, is that -- part of what they into zip it will occur is a battle between sunni and shia, and a battle between isis and rome, which many people interpret as the west. they want to carry out the minor signs and the major signs leading up to the end times. it is important that we understand this. groups that believe, that have an apocalyptic narrative, are
brian lamb: will it work? does it work? jessica stern: i think they are trying to measure the effect is. -- effectiveness. obviously that looks horrifying task -- to us. would make us think twice about joining a group that is doing that. but, some young people find the production values of isis videos much more appealing. then the state department's rendition. they have definitely gotten better over time. the other problem with the state department's efforts is that it
is the state department. the fact that it is the state department running, think again, turn away, makes it less edible. i would like to see -- less credible. i would like to see nongovernment organizations getting involved. i like to see many people watching this program. think about how they might counter isis. anybody who has something to offer. i think we all need to really think about that. for over 12 years, i have been arguing that the people who need to counter this message need to be the same age as those who are being recruited. there is now an organization in california called edventures that is having students at universities around the world compete to come up with
platforms for spreading counter messaging. what i think we need to do is find former terrorists who can speak very eloquently about whether their experience was. there are plenty of former terrorists out there who said, i thought i was going to be helping people. i was witnessing beheading, or force to be involved in horrific acts of violence that i will never recover from. the jihadi wife -- wives who get past from have has been to husband every week. we need to hear from these people who leave with the same kind of production values that isis is using. the fact that students are now getting a chance to develop a
response and compete for the best response most effective ly, i think it's great. brian lamb: what would have happened in world war ii when the germans were exterminating the jews, if there had been twitter and iphones and cameras and the internet? would it make a difference? what is the difference by the way, from what the germans did to it isis is doing now? jessica stern: the first obvious difference is that isis is flaunting its brutality. isis is not uniquely brutal in history, it is not uniquely barbaric. but the fact that it is flaunting its barbarism that is , as far as i know, unique. and certainly the way it is able
to spread images of barbarism so widely, that is certainly unique. what would have happened if the germans did the same thing? really what isis is doing would be analogous to the not cease -- nazis trying to recruit americans or enemy countries to join its side by showing at acts of fibers in. that is essentially what isis is doing. i think as a result it is getting psychopaths. it is attracting psychopaths. that is not the only people they attacked by any means. but those that they are attracting in the west clearly a higher percentage of people attracted to violence.
then we have seen in the past. brian lamb: when you and your co-author talk about the new media and all of that, what is your own conclusion? new media is good or bad for the world? jessica stern: i think it is good for the world, but i think we have to ask my co-author. i just think this is the dark side of the new media. we have not come up with a way to deal with that. we have not yet come up with a way to deal with it. brian lamb: in your conversations with him, does he think there is a way? jessica stern: he has been an advocate of taking down terrorist recruitment messages. he knows -- i think i can speak for him in this regard -- he
knows it can't possibly be 100% effective, but what we would like to do is make it a little bit more difficult for isis to recruit. youtube has been very active. facebook has been very active. twitter has not -- much more become active. isis is now threatening people working for twitter. because they are so angry. they have been able to use twitter effectively. one of the things that is so great about twitter is, if you are interested in gardening or cooking, it will help you find other people who are interested in whatever your passion is. unfortunately, it also help people find others interested in isis or joining isis.
twitter is now taking a much more active stance against this. brian lamb: we have some video of beheadings. we are not going to show the actual beheading, but about two minutes of this. i have never seen this before. you can find all of this on the internet. this particular one, we will show two minutes of it, because it shows from almost beginning to end, something like 17 people. this was at the end of last year. you cannot be sure about this video, you never know where it is coming from or what timing is on it. i would just one people if they don't want to have anything to do with this, turn it off at this point. we will not show the actual beheadings. that we get pretty close to it. we will run this and get the opinion of the impact of it.
brian lamb: what do you think? jessica stern: i think two things. the impact is -- one wants to just put a stop to it right now. you can feel how i feel, i want to stop. that is part of what they want. they want us to go and fight them over there. apparently there are people who see a video like that and think i want to join them. i think what happened -- what
isis is doing, they are capitalizing in the region on the disenfranchisement of sunnis. they are getting people there who want to protect their own families. who feel under seized -- under seized, either by a side or by the sectarian regimes in iraq. those they attract in the west, clearly some of them know this is happening and actually want to join. i think the more important response is that it makes us want to go protect those people right now. we want to go and fight isis. and i'm not sure that is the best thing for the world. brian lamb: why? jessica stern: i think the presence of western troops could really assist isis with its
recruitment. isis has a narrative about a battle between the west and islam. we really don't want to feed into that narrative. brian lamb: from what you have observed, do merit -- many americans want to send true? -- troops? jessica stern: the polls suggest that more than half of americans would like to send in ground forces. brian lamb: as you watched that video, first of all isis produced that. it is hard to even describe the fact that the production values are pretty good. the music. and you look at the faces of both sides. there is nothing unusual looking about either side. you wonder what is going through a man's mind to pick up a knife and do a mass beheading.
you studied terrorists, how did they do it? jessica stern: i can speak in general terms. they train. they learn to dehumanize the " enemy" whether the enemy is anyone who doesn't go along with their interpretation of islam, shiites, also anyone, including sunnis who do not accept their interpretation of islam. they trained to dehumanize. they are training children to be had -- behead people of using dolls. they are starting on children. it takes training to get someone to erode empathy the way they are doing things.
you turn someone into a monster deliberately. brian lamb: let's look at the map again of where i has -- where isis has territory. the orange. where do they get money? jessica stern: one of the most difficult aspect of countering this organization is that they don't require contributions the way previous jihadi organizations have. they are a very effective criminal organization. they are selling oil, they are selling antiquities. they have been involved in crime or profit since al qaeda in iraq. they have long-standing smuggling routes. indeed, al qaeda asked zarkawi for money. i kind of -- al qaeda was so
effective criminal activities for money, that al qaeda itself him for donations. brian lamb: there's a reason story -- recent story that suggests that hundreds of billions of dollars we sent to iraq is being siphoned off to isis to buy weapons and ammunition. jessica stern: apparently a fraction of the money that is being used to pay iraqi officials is being siphoned off as a form of taxation. brian lamb: how many people belong to isis? jessica stern: approximately -- the numbers vary. approximately 100,000. brian lamb: predominantly sunni or shia? jessica stern: predominantly
sunni. brian lamb: 90% of the muslims in the world are sunni. why aren't the sunnis reacting strongly to this? jessica stern: they are reacting very strongly. we have many many clerics who are talking about isis' misinterpretation of islam. the problem is, they are not doing it in a compelling way. i think that we need people who can create a response using similar production values that would appeal to the very people isis is trying to recruit around the world. there are approximately -- the figures vary -- something like 20,000 foreign fighters acting on behalf of isis. those people need to hear from
clerics who can speak in an exciting way who can say this is why this is wrong. this is not how we interpret islam. but it can't be boring video. it has to be well produced. brian lamb: have any idea where the money is coming from? any of the arab countries or see a -- shia countries? jessica stern: i said it is sunni organization -- isis is a sunni organization. there have been individuals who want to support isis in some sunni majority countries. saudi arabia kuwait, qatar. saudi arabia has apparently completely shut down the flow of
money. according to the treasury department money is still to some extent going in through kuwait, but that is not important. what is more important for isis is it is able to sell f-fund, at least for now. brian lamb: a lot of people involved over there were educated in the united states. i have a list of about five. the president of afghanistan spent a decade in this country and got a phd from columbia in this country. cody -- shaikh mohammed, the mastermind of 9/11, got a degree in north carolina. one of the writers of egyptian
spent two years in this country and went to stanford. then went to join the muslim brotherhood. the oddest one of all, or in the sense of -- the foreign minister of iran, mohammed thezar went to the university ofief denver. the father of madeleine albright. i we making a mistake by having such openness here in letting the people come over here and learn the world? from our perspective? jessica stern: certainly not, i don't think so. obviously shaikh mohammed is a
terrorist. then most of the people you are mentioning are not terrorists per se -- no, i think i would never try to close up education just because shake mohammed became a terrorist. brian lamb: i was also thinking about the foreign minister of iran and a decade in this country. and then isn't iran part of some of the money being funded to isis? jessica stern: iran is fighting isis. isis poses a threat to iran. i certainly -- if there is individual money, if individuals in iran are funding isis, that
is possible. brian lamb: let me show you some video from your last stop here back in 2003. get your reaction to what you see of the former jessica stern. brian lamb: you dedicate the book to evan and jeff. jessica stern: my son and my husband. my son is almost too. brian lamb: what about the personal side of all this? do you ever feel threatened or you might be marked as of the way you take this information and present it in books in entries -- interviews? jessica stern: i will not be going back to talk to terrorists in the field the way i did researching this book. having a child completely changed my feeling about doing that. even though i was always extremely careful still, having seen what happened to daniel
pearl who did exactly what i did, i believe being a woman made me much sicker. nonetheless with a son, that is not something i will do. i probably will not go back to pakistan where i am told i am the best known american among the jihadi's. brian lamb: did you go back at all since then? jessica stern: no, i didn't. brian lamb: our first discussion is available it talks about where you went looking for the same thing we are talking about here. your son is 15 now. jessica stern: he is now 13. brian lamb: 13. what is he doing? is he interested? jessica stern: somewhat. he is mainly interested in dungeons & dragons. brian lamb: we have one more clip. this is something we have not talked about.
with the little time we have remaining, get your point of view. jessica stern: i decided to investigate my own as if he were one of the terrorists i study. >> you were raped when you were 15? jessica stern: yes. with a knife. the police did not believe my sister and me. nobody bothered to investigate. it turned out we found out 35 years later this was a serial rapist who drink at least 44 girls. 20 of them at harvard. harvard university covered it up. brian lamb: why did you write that? jessica stern: i wanted to help people who have been severely traumatized. i realized that having been the victim of a very violent man
that actually influenced my choice of career. but i had not spent my life in -- huddled in hiding away from the world. which is one of the ways a person might react. i will say that my publisher was -- and my editor, were not that keen about that book. but i got a lot of letters from people saying how much the book helped them. you know, that is not enough for the publisher. but i know the book really helped people. but it is also as if i have two different audiences. the people interested in that book and the people interested in the work i do on terrorism. i was a little worried.
my unofficial editor talked me into writing the book about my own rape and rapist. i was afraid it might ruin my career. but the truth is, many of the people who are interested in my work on terrorism don't even know about that book. you are perhaps introducing them to it. brian lamb: this happened at age 15. how old is your sister? jessica stern: 14. brian lamb: where? jessica stern: in our home in a very thick town in concord massachusetts. brian lamb: you took a swipe at harvard or not doing anything about it. you are still lecturing there. does this book have any impact on harvard and is it still a problem? jessica stern: harvard has gotten me in some trouble with hal nine -- title ix. but one of the people i interviewed and that book,
someone who was raped by the same man, was the daughter of and then enough harvard law school -- then dean of harvard law school. the fact that harvard covered up what was going on was there he dangerous. had harvard not covered it up -- this was a long time ago, they would not doing today. she would not have been a victim. her sister saw someone around the house. i think it is important for universities to be aware of the impact of covering up sexual violence. that he can lead to additional violence. brian lamb: the name of that book is "denial, a memoir of terror." are you still glad you did it? jessica stern: i am, because i think it helps people.
not just victims of, but because i showed what it was like to be a victim of posttraumatic stress. brian lamb: do you still have it? jessica stern: i guess i do. most symptoms are gone, but i am able to use the capacity to dissociate in my work. i can use it productively. as many people do. ptsd is not only a debilitating disorder but can actually be used productively at work. it is not good for one's personal life. brian lamb: what is the book you are working on that you interrupted to do this book. ? jessica stern: i'm working on a book on war criminals. i'm interviewing war criminals in prison, which is much safer
than going out and finding jihadi. i know i want to do that. brian lamb: war criminals based in the united states? jessica stern: no, were criminals indicted or mostly convicted for their participation in the war in bosnia. brian lamb: what is your timing on the release? jessica stern: i'm not sure. this is a very research intensive book. i would love to come talk to about it when i finished. brian lamb: the name of the book we have been talking about is "isis: the state of terror". our guest is co-author jessica stern. we thank you very much. jessica stern: thank you so much. >> for free transcripts are give us your comments about this program, visit us at q and a.org.
programs are also available at c-span broadcast. -- podcast. >> next, the debate on how the u.s. should handle relations with russia. another chance to see q and a with author jessica stern talking about the origins and goals of the terror group isis. >> on the next washington journal, the hill staff writer rebecca chabad has the latest on negotiations between house and senate conference committee members and previews there monday meeting. from the justice department, talks about national crime victims rights week in the department's role in assisting crime victims.